In the first section, an interviewer talks with Jim Flanagan, a mechanic at the Auburn Airport, about a plane he's been working on for ten years. Flanagan discusses the plane's history, including a crash that required an engine replacement. He explains that the current engine is powerful and reliable, but also expensive to maintain. Flanagan expresses confidence in the plane's safety, though he admits he would need a refresher course before flying it himself. The conversation also touches on the history of aviation, with Flanagan recalling the affordability of surplus planes after World War II. He contrasts this with the high cost of modern aircraft parts, emphasizing the challenges of maintaining older planes.

In the second section, the interviewer speaks with Bonnie Palmer about her fascination with Lyman Gilmore, a pioneer aviator from Grass Valley. Palmer, a former teacher, describes her extensive research on Gilmore, driven by a desire to document his accomplishments and contributions to aviation. She shares newspaper clippings and other historical records that highlight Gilmore's early flights and his innovative ideas. Palmer emphasizes Gilmore's passion for aviation and his concern for the environment, portraying him as a visionary ahead of his time. The conversation also touches on the challenges Gilmore faced, including setbacks with his early aircraft and the theft of his gyroscopic equipment. Palmer's dedication to preserving Gilmore's legacy is evident throughout the interview.

Full Transcript of the Video:

Come over here Jim Flanagan.

We are at the Auburn Airport and we found Tom Dweller's mechanic, Jim Flanagan.

Hold on a minute, this truck has gone by.

We can't hear it because the truck has got gas.

Do you hear the truck's got gas, Kurt?
Do you hear any explosions?
Okay, let's talk to Jim Flanagan.

Still smoking that darn pipe, huh Jim?
Why?
I don't know why.

Why are you smoking that pipe?
What does your lovely wife, Dottie, say about the pipe smoking?
Does she make you go outside?
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

She doesn't?
No, no, no, no, no.

Okay.

Let's ask you about how long you've been working on airplanes.

I started working on airplanes and I started aircraft mechanics school in 1941, about two weeks after I got out of high school.

My goodness, and now you're at the Auburn Airport, mechanic for Tom Dweller.

Dweller.

Yeah.

Uh-huh.

I've been out here since, well, God, it's ten years at least.

My goodness, working on this fabulous plane here.

Well, we had a couple other airplanes.

Were they Tom's?
Yeah.

We're building up a couple more.

Are you?
But not like this one.

This is the hot one.

This is the hot one.

Uh-huh.

And how long have you been working on this particular plane here?
I'd say probably about nine years.

Really?
Because we got it after it had been bellied in up at Lino.

Uh-oh.

Which wiped out the prop, wiped out the engine and did a whole bunch of damage to the bottom of the airplane.

Uh-huh.

And it took us about three or four years to get all that fixed.

So you put a new engine in?
We put a different engine in.

And, well, the engine we had, we tried it, it didn't work too good, it fell apart.

We put another in and we flew it and it was a stock 3350 and a stock C propeller off of a Skyrated.

And it didn't quite do the job.

So this engine here is a late Connie engine that had been modified.

Where did you get the engine from?
I don't know, I don't ask silly questions.

You don't?
That's not a silly question.

Well, I don't know.

I'd be concerned about the engine that was flying the thing.

Well, this engine here had been overhauled.

Do you fly?
I used to fly.

Did you?
Would you fly in this one?
No, no, no.

It's only got one seat.

Well, that's what I mean.

Would you fly in this plane?
Well, I'd have to have to take a refresher course for a couple of months.

You trusted enough to get up in it though.

That's what I'm saying.

Yeah.

It is probably as safe as any of them.

Well, the light airplanes and all that.

See, this thing here, we don't.

.

.

the FAA doesn't check this airplane very much.

They've looked at it once or twice and they check the records up at Reno.

So you're the checker.

You check it out.

Yeah.

You check it out.

You go over.

So Tom and his wife Pat, they're on vacation right now and this is how we're able to sneak a peek at this.

This is going to be okay with them, isn't it?
I don't know whether it is or not.

Well, it will be.

We'll have to say, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But Tom's an old pilot from a long time ago.

In fact, it runs in his family.

Does it?
Did his dad start out piloting?
I think his dad started out piloting airplanes probably right after World War II when they became a lot of them.

Well, after World War II, you could buy T-6s for $1,000, VT-13s for $750.

Of course, that was a lot of money back then.

Was it?
Now, how much would you buy this plane for?
Well, this was built after World War II.

I know.

But I mean, if somebody wanted to buy a plane like this right now, how much would they pay for it?
I don't even want to guess.

A hundred bucks?
No.

Come back, Sam.

How funny can you get?
No.

I want to get an idea.

Well, back right after World War II, you could buy P-51s and P-40s and P-47s, almost anything you wanted for $1,500 to $2,000.

Brand new airplanes.

In fact, you could buy brand new amphibians that are just flown from back east out here to Chino for a couple thousand bucks apiece.

My goodness.

Those same airplanes today would be worth half a million easy.

Or you could buy a B-17 and they'd fill up all the fuel tanks so you'd fly home.

Well, there you go.

But that was then, and this is now.

So does we see the Reno Hilton?
Is that the sponsor and they pay the bills?
Well, Reno Hilton pays something.

I don't know that.

And Taco Bell.

Taco Bell.

Taco Bell is underneath the wing.

Taco Bell put a bunch of money into it.

Thomas put a bunch of money into it.

A bigger bunch.

Because this engine here has only been on there now less than, I'd say, three weeks.

Uh-oh.

And it's been broken in, flown up at Reno.

Because the airplane is up at Reno without an engine.

Because the other engine we had, or this engine, pardon me, broke a valve stem.

Yeah.

And dumped a sodium out and it burned the top out of one of the cylinders.

Uh-oh.

That's why you see the burnt spot up there.

Uh-huh.

And it also got a little garbage in the engine.

So it took it off, disassembled, took all the cylinders off of it, and took the case down to the people that built it that had the tools to put it together and take it apart, you know?
Uh-huh.

And they did that up down there.

And they didn't do it quite right the first time, but they did it right the second time.

So does Tom pilot this plane?
Yeah.

He does.

He's the only one that's been flying.

Well, him and Skip hold it.

And they're doing it.

Well, Cecil Gray told us to come over here and see if we could find Tom.

So we're here.

Cecil Gray wanted us to come over here and see if we could find somebody that knew about this plane.

And that's you.

Yes.

Because I've been living with this monster for ten years.

Monster!
Well, if you live with a woman for ten years, you'll learn something about her, you know?
If you live with an airplane for ten years, you'll learn a lot of things about it, too.

And some of it you don't like.

It's both good.

[laughter] Get back over here.

Get back over here, Jen.

[laughter] Okay, we'll tell Dottie.

Okay.

We'll tell Dottie you're learning about her every day.

Yeah.

Just like the plane.

Anyway, what do you need to know about it?
So you actually, you have blueprints for this plane.

If you want to see blueprints.

Wait, wait, wait, wait.

No, I don't want to see them yet.

Okay.

We don't want to see them.

Knock the mic out of my hand.

You're getting crazy here.

Slow down.

[laughter] Okay.

So do you trust this plane enough that you would fly it if you could?
[cough] Honey, this airplane is like going out with the most beautiful girl in the world.

Uh-huh.

If you had a chance, you know damn good and well I would.

Okay.

All right.

Well, this is-- In both cases, you can get killed.

[laughter] Yeah, well, we would hope that that doesn't happen.

We would hope that Tom is going to win the race when he-- When is the race in Reno, by the way?
Oh.

When's the next one?
Middle of September.

You got a while before you get this thing out.

Oh, yeah.

How are you going to get it to Reno?
You got to fly?
Oh, it's-- this thing goes to Reno and-- what is it?
It'll go up there at 350 miles an hour.

Oh, well, you'll be there in a half an hour.

Half an hour?
It ain't that far to Reno.

You're going straight, remember?
Oh, yeah.

Okay.

Like a bird goes.

You're not following the roads.

Uh-huh.

Because he can take off at Reno, and before I get-- drive in the car, before I get down to Interstate 80, he's here on the ground.

Oh, my.

That's moving, Kurt.

Kurt, have you been a flyer?
No.

No?
You want to fly?
No.

Would you fly this?
No.

Oh, my.

Here comes the plane.

Kurt, get this one.

Who's got this plane, Jeff?
I don't know.

There's several of them around here.

Okay.

That's a pretty neat flight.

Tell us about this one.

What kind is it?
I'm sure you know.

That is a Beechcraft Debonair.

Uh-huh.

Yep.

There it goes around.

It costs money.

Does it cost money?
It costs money.

All airplanes cost money anymore.

Okay.

Here comes one.

That is a Bonanza.

And the other one was a Debonair.

Uh-huh.

The Debonairs.

What's the difference?
Same factor made them.

Oh, really?
They thought the V-tail was a selling point.

Uh-huh.

I think it wasn't.

Oh, okay.

From an airplane mechanic here.

Yeah.

Well, we're going to go talk to somebody who knew or is doing research on Lyman Gilmore.

You know anything about it?
Lyman Gilmore.

I have a book back here.

And I looked in there and I couldn't say anything on Lyman Gilmore.

Uh-huh.

Let me get that.

I don't know.

I don't know how you'd find out Lyman Gilmore.

Is he a local boy?
He's Grass Valley, Nevada City.

Grass Valley, Nevada City.

Well, I think he probably is.

Well, anyway, we're going to talk to somebody, Bonnie Palmer, who knows about Lyman Gilmore.

So we're going to let you go and do your thing on this airplane.

And we appreciate your time that you've given us to talk about this wonderful, wonderful, wonderful plane.

Yeah, I'd like to share.

Uh-huh.

It is.

It's a hot rod.

What's the first plane you ever worked on?
You remember back in the day, 20 years ago?
Worked on.

No, here at this airport.

God, I don't remember.

There's a lot of airplanes out here that you don't remember working on.

Oh.

Some-- are you-- you're his mechanic only, though, right?
Yeah, I don't work on ugly.

Okay.

All right.

That's all we want to know.

Don't get hysterical on me here.

Dottie will say, "Do you really behave like that, man?"
Yeah.

All right.

Well, we in the service?
Yes.

What part?
What branch?
Army.

To be specific, I was in the 101st Airborne Division.

Uh-huh.

And I always see you out marching in the parades, thank God for you, because you-- you keep it held up.

The veterans, foreign war.

Yeah.

I can still get into my uniform.

I had it 20.

What are you saying here?
Are you-- he can too, I'll bet.

Kurt can.

Look at him, what a string bean he is.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Big, tall, handsome men here.

I don't know what to say.

How do you know he's handsome?
He's hiding behind the bush.

I know.

He's trying to get your picture.

[LAUGHTER] All right.

We'll see you one of these days at Lulabani's.

Okay.

Thank you very much for your time.

Yeah.

You take care.

What's the final word you want to say for the plane?
Well, it ought to go good this year.

Because the engine is-- Don't invite me to the plane again.

Look at it.

You look over there and there's hardly any oil on the floor.

Mm-hmm.

Which for a riot is unusual.

So the thing is, you have a lot of oil coming out of the prop, but that's not no problem.

Uh-huh.

And it runs smooth.

Runs like a top.

And it don't leak oil.

Oh, that's great.

All right.

Well, a normal riot, you'd say, is something wrong with it.

Because it ain't leaking oil.

Mm-hmm.

Because all of them do is this one.

So that's because you worked on it.

No.

We've got everything fitted up as good as we can because parts are getting to be a little bit hard to get.

Are they?
Yeah.

If you want to buy a new set of exhaust dials to that monster, yeah, you'll probably figure out if you can find them, maybe $2,500 to $3,000 for exhaust dials.

Oh, my goodness.

Was this a P-51?
No.

No.

This was a British sea fury, which was the last testing-powered fighter built.

And they were in Korea over there.

One of them even shot down a MiG.

Because back in those days, they carried four 20-millimeter cannons.

Mm-hmm.

And they could carry rockets and a bunch of other stuff.

But they only had a 2,500-horse engine.

Well, now we've lashing the old gold up and smoothed it up.

The wings have been chopped.

The tail's different.

The canopy's different.

The cowling's different.

The prop's different.

In fact, the only thing there is a basic structure that was built in Britain.

Everything else is Americanized.

America's taking over.

The engine now is set up a 2,500-horse engine.

We've got one that'll pump out an excessive 4,000.

Whoa.

160 octane fuel.

We've got a 220-gallon tank for that stuff.

In full throttle, that'll probably give you, you know, I'd say 20 minutes at the most.

Better fly well.

Fly well.

But most of these guys that fly these can land them with the engine dead.

Oh.

That don't necessarily scare them to death.

The only problem is they've got to have a place to land it.

That would scare me.

Well, they get the.

.

.

They can be going 450 miles an hour, right down 50 feet off the deck.

If something goes wrong, they just pull the nose up, stop the engine, and they'll go up to 5,000, 6,000 feet just going forward to velocity.

Then they dump everything out and sort things out and come in and land.

Well, that's good to know.

That's good to know.

All right.

We're going to let you go.

Thank you so much for your time, Jim.

Tell Tom we were here, will you?
Okay, I'll tell.

.

.

Tom and Pat, they're out of town.

Where are they?
I never asked them before they're going.

Never asked.

.

.

They say they might tell me when they'll be back.

You say where you've been?
All right.

We'll see you all later.

Thanks for watching.

Bye-bye.

We'll see you in a few minutes.

Bonnie Palmer.

And we want to ask Bonnie Palmer about a guy that was maybe the first pilot ever called Lyman Gilmore.

How you doing, Bonnie?
Doing okay, Eva.

Good.

It's great to see you.

Good.

It's good to see you.

You're looking well.

Thank you.

You are too.

We did your brother, Max Flint.

Yes.

A video of him and that turned out really well.

And we wanted to.

.

.

because we haven't really asked you all the questions that we would like to know about Lyman Gilmore.

Okay.

And you, I know, and I don't know why, maybe you can tell me, you have a fascination for this man.

Where did that come from, that fascination that you have for Lyman Gilmore?
Do you know that you asked me that a couple of days ago, and I've still been trying to figure it out.

Perhaps by the time we're done, it will seem apparent, but I don't really think I can answer it right off.

Yeah, because I know you've done a lot of research about this man.

Yes, I have.

So what is the number one thing about this man that stands out in your mind, Bonnie?
He ran into a lot of hard luck.

And different things were thought about him.

They didn't all jibe.

It wasn't nicely laid out in everything known.

An example is why did he leave his hair long?
Some thought because he said he would not cut his hair or shave until he had flown.

But then he said that he had had the flu once and had a hard time getting over it, then got it again and told the doctor and said to the doctor, "I'm better when I'm covered up.

"
And the doctor said, "Okay, do it that way.

If that works for you, do it.

"
So his hair was cover up for him, though.

I think so.

And then there's a third version that he was afraid of getting spiral meningitis.

And that goes back to when an important person in his life died of spiral meningitis.

You can take your pick.

Which one do you want?
Okay, yeah.

Well, Bonnie, you've been a teacher for years and years.

And where were you a teacher?
One year in Butte County, seven and a half years in Nevada County, and 15 in Citrus Heights.

So what was your main subject?
What did you teach?
Or did you teach everything?
In the beginning, all eight grades in the single classroom with no aid and almost always twenty pupils.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

So he had a full load.

Yes.

Definitely.

And two children to raise by myself.

When I became interested in the boys who didn't like what they had to read, I knew that a lot of people learned to read in the first grade, a lot of children.

But then a lot don't make it yet.

So I went in second grade, and fortunately I got it.

And fortunately I got a principal who would let me have a lot of boys, which is strange because I don't have—my family are girls, two girls.

I did what I could for boys' interests, sports, cars, planes, boats.

You have it.

We have a plane going over right now, Bonnie.

I didn't find you.

So boys are pretty fascinating.

And if you do it the right way, then they're more apt to learn through a method rather than just looking at a paper if you show them a method of how to learn, like an object.

Oh, an object.

Yeah, object lessons, basically.

Well, there was a time—I won't answer that quite the way you're expecting.

I gave as rewards to boys for good reading cards from Harrah's old-time auto plays.

And if a boy read well for ten days in a row, he got a postcard of an old-time auto.

And they really went to work on that.

They loved that.

All right.

Good deal.

Yeah.

Okay, well, you know that you were a pretty fantastic teacher.

But what got you on to this, because you have done so much research on Lyman Gilmore.

What got you on?
What got you hooked on this man, Lyman Gilmore?
I'm sure it goes much farther back than that.

I'm certain of it because of my father writing science fiction, our father writing science fiction.

And your father was?
Homer E.

Onflin.

He died in an automobile accident in 1927.

He was 35 years old.

But he was the scientist.

And my mother helped him with his writing.

She did the English part for him as much as he needed, which wasn't that much.

Good sentence construction, on and on and on.

And it seems to me that I kind of picked up that that was all in my very formative years.

And I don't remember her doing it.

But it seems to me I just kind of carried on from there with my brother, because he had the scientific mind.

And that fascinated me.

Yes, he's a pretty smart fellow, definitely.

Can we see a picture of what Lyman Gilmore looked like back in the day?
Let's see what you've got here.

There he is, Kurt.

That is Lyman Gilmore.

Can you get him?
He's definitely covered up.

He's got his beard going and his long hair and— Is that it, Kurt?
Okay.

You got it?
All right.

Okay.

So, Bonnie, where was your main searching done?
What happened was my brother wrote all he could remember about Lyman Gilmore.

He talked on two cassette tapes.

Now, did he know him?
Did your brother know him?
Very much.

Max Flint, the new Lyman Gilmore.

Yes.

Lyman would go to the post office on Commercial Street in Nevada City and go by my brother's watch repair shop, which was across the street from the post office.

Lyman lived not too far away on Nevada Street.

He'd drop in and talk to Max, and they would be litalk.

That wasn't very good for my brother's watch repair business, but Mr.
Gilmore was fascinating.

The things that my brother spoke up—he spoke on to cassette tapes.

I transcribed first in longhand, then typed it and got it ready.

Later on, Sierra Heritage edited my daughter, who is a writer of thirty-five books.

Right, exactly.

Your daughter is Vella?
She edited it.

Vella Munn.

These were fascinating memories that Max had of Mr.
Gilmore.

But what bothered me was that there was not backup for what he said.

There was nothing in the newspaper or anything.

I worked for an Ed Tyson in Nevada City once, Searle's historical library.

Worked for him a year and a half once a week in the afternoon.

He was stuck with a scrapbook after scrapbook of articles from the newspapers about prominent people, about places, about happenings.

Many of them did not have the date that they appeared in the newspaper.

You had no way of going back and checking.

So was Lyman Gilmore considered a prominent person back in the day?
Well, I'll get there.

What bothered me was I wanted to get as much documented material about Lyman Gilmore that I could.

And so you began?
Yes.

And where did you start out?
For instance, right here is one article that appeared about him.

It appeared that Larry Prosser wrote it for Foothill Entertainer, May 26, 1990.

And though he has some dates in here, not enough for me, not after being with Ed Tyson and knowing how terribly important it was.

Shall we start?
You bet.

Let's go.

I'm ready, Bonnie.

This is exciting.

Here was another.

Here by the way speaks of Lyman flying in May 1902, a year and a half before the Wright brothers flew.

He said he had flown 20 times, anywhere from 100 feet to more than 1,000.

He had a unique engine, steam engine, wasn't it?
In the Iowa Hill area, yes.

But later on he found that was too dangerous.

Or maybe right then and there he found it was too dangerous.

I don't think he went for a steam engine after those 20 flights.

And can you imagine going up with a steam boiler up in the air?
That's incredible.

What a man.

That would be for me, Bonnie.

That would be for me, as long as I can drag one foot along the ground, I'm doing quite well.

We can go fast as long as I can stick my foot out and find the pavement, yeah, or the ground.

I mean, when you get started on this man, you just keep going.

Anyway, this article I found at the Auburn Library quite a few years ago.

It's Placer Gold, April the 3rd, 1973.

It is a good article on Mr.
Gilmore.

Some of the pictures, some of this.

I have better pictures to show you, Kurt, so I won't try this.

But this is the one that caught my fancy.

State Fair.

It reads, "It was still in 1903, and the impending flight of the Wright brothers is destined for December.

Meanwhile, Lyman Gilmore took his monoplane to the State Fair in Sacramento and mounted it atop a water tower.

He waited all day for the wind to change, and when it finally did, he took off.

He flew 100 yards, and the wind shifted.

The plane struck an air pocket and crashed.

"
I thought, "How am I going to find a newspaper article that can verify that?"
It was a long trail, but anyway, at the Sacramento— That's okay, Bonnie.

Let's just keep going.

"In the California State Library in Sacramento, I found the newspaper articles for the State Fair.

Here is a program at the fairgrounds.

This is off the microfish.

Here it starts telling about the fair.

This began on August 29, 1903.

"
He was determined to get up in that air and keep going, huh?
He sure was.

Then day by day, the happenings at the fair, day by day.

Finally, and I have each one of them, all the different things that happened.

Bonnie, did he finance this on his own, or did he have help back?
"At that point, 1903, I believe this was all his own.

Okay, here's September 8, 10th, 11th, 11th, and it's on this one.

September 11, 1903, automobiles race against the wind.

"
Whoa!
Ha, ha, ha!
Caught it.

It also somewhere says that the poultry exhibit was disturbed by the wind.

It didn't say anything about someone flying a plane, but it did talk about the wind.

Isn't that neat?
Yes, it is.

Right in the paper.

Fantastic.

Yes.

Right in the paper.

Okay.

So this was an eccentric man.

Would you say that he was?
What do you think made him that way?
Just his personality?
He was a middle child of eleven children.

He made trouble for his father.

The story goes that he plucked the feathers off of a turkey, and the father wasn't happy.

The story goes that he tied his model or his plane to the back of a wagon, and the horse was drawing the wagon.

And he thought that wagon was going to fly, huh?
And as the plane rose in the air, it frightened the horse, and that was it.

Away they went.

The horse didn't ever recover.

Poor horse.

Now let's switch to 1909.

State Fair time again.

Let's go.

Okay.

On August the 20th, on page seven in the Sacramento Bee Special Services Department, General Ariel Flight is made from—can't read this for real—Mountain at Colfax.

Gyroscope used to steady new machine of amateur, company being organized, and it's a model.

A model plane.

Model plane.

That very same—now that was in the Sacramento Bee, and there was an article the next day in the Grass Valley's Morning Union newspaper.

Colfax Man flies a new machine.

In new machine.

But that was an error.

They found out it was a model.

Not so.

So there was actually no one in the plane then?
No.

It was a model.

On the very same day, on a back page is this—Rights suing an aeronautic society.

Uh-oh.

Competition.

In the article, Gilmour mentions that there was a possibility that someone from Wright Brothers was in Colfax and saw the flight.

The flight—it was 250 feet off the ground for the most part, and the model plane went 300—3,000—whatever.

It was at Cape Horn in Iowa Hill.

So Iowa Hill is famous for something.

Oh, you bet it is.

Other than the mule.

Dempsey the Mule.

Ooh, you bet it is.

Jack Dempsey the Mule was the mayor in Iowa Hill.

In the Sacramento Bee, the very next day, August the 21st, 1909, model airship is kept secret.

Uh-oh.

Now, according to the article, the first article, no one was permitted to get within 30 feet.

And Gilmour was said to be very secretive about what he did.

Mm-hmm.

That was— I'm afraid somebody would steal his ideas.

Yes.

Now, this was clear on page 17, still in the special services section, on August the 25th.

Front page.

Front page.

Starship may fly at the fair.

Airship may fly at the fair.

There's Lyman and Gilmour's name scattered all over the biggest newspaper in Northern California.

Front page.

Really?
Really.

Really.

And this is one reason I wanted this to be done, because it shows why Lyman Gilmour became prominent, why his name was known, and how it was known.

Mm-hmm.

Didn't you tell me that there's a mural that he is involved in?
There are different people in this painting, right?
And he's one of the prominent ones that— This was painted, I think, about five or six years ago.

There are perhaps 30 people in that painting, and there are copies of it in the Grass Valley, Nevada City area.

He is there, and they are the 30 most prominent individuals in the history of Nevada County.

And he is there.

Then it says— Looking good, Lyman Gilmour.

"To fly every day, and this is the next day.

"
This is a— I also included— Is that his plane there?
No.

This is the article.

I included accompanying material to show how much interest there was in flight in those days.

Okay, Kurt?
Okay.

Do you know whether or not he had any help building his plane, or did he do it himself?
Totally.

I can't entirely answer that one.

I must say that the plane did not fly at the fair.

Two days after the bee printed that it was going to fly, Gilmour told them that the first he knew that his ship would be at the fair was when he read it in the Sacramento Bee.

What a way to find out.

Well, his plane had been somewhat damaged in the flight at Iowa Hill, so he was not able to show it at the fair.

Then what happened, and it's in following articles day by day in both the Sacramento Bee and the Grass Valley Papers, someone stole his plane.

He was to go to Sacramento and talk with officials.

He hid it in a tunnel, and when he got back, his plane was stolen.

He found it several days later, and the garyscopic equipment was missing.

Uh-oh.

Yeah.

Okay.

So they never found out who actually took the plane away?
No.

Or if they did, I couldn't find it.

So after then, did he keep going?
Did he still use the sent— This is what has been quoted three or four times in material in—if I sound like a teacher, I'm sorry, I've been a teacher.

I love you, Bonnie.

I love you being a teacher.

One hundred liters in aviation meet to promote flying.

This was in the San Francisco Chronicle.

This article about Gilmour is down here.

This is— So this is Lyman Gilmour here.

Now who are the other three guys that appear there with him?
They are members of the group who were interested in flight.

I see.

This was printed May the 7th, 1927, two weeks before Lindbergh flew the Atlantic.

Whoa!
Here at the side, it reads, "San Francisco Airport dedication takes place this morning.

"
And that's when the airport that so many people have come into and flown out of was dedicated.

How convenient to have this meeting of these interested people, people interested in aviation, at the same time that the airport was dedicated in San Francisco.

That is convenient, isn't it?
Yeah.

Again, that was May 7th, 1927.

And down here, when it talks about Lyman himself, it says that men interested in aviation affairs, a lot of the people there did not know who he was, but those who had been into it for a long time crowded around Lyman Gilmour and shook his hand.

And for me, it's those things that happened at state fair time that put Lyman Gilmour in the prominence.

It seemed that he was always at the state fairs, which is the place to be.

It's kind of like Sally Rand, the fan dancer.

She became famous at the state fair.

Okay.

Yeah, nothing to do with Lyman Gilmour.

I just thought I'd throw that in, because she's a dancer.

What else we got here, Bonnie, about Lyman?
You still got to tell me why you're fascinated, which obviously you are.

When you latch onto things like this, it's more exciting than fiction.

No, this isn't fiction.

This is true.

No, this is it.

This establishes the date that Lindbergh flew the Atlantic, and it was May 21, 1927.

And this is from the Sacramento Beach.

You also are fascinated with Lindbergh, aren't you?
Not as much maybe as Lyman Gilmour, but you like flying.

There's a lot of people around this area that love flying.

We've been to the airport, huh?
The first time I flew, I was going to Placer Junior College, which is the starter for Sierra College.

I flew with another student.

I was his third passenger after getting his wings.

Boy, you had nerves.

And that was back in 1940.

And you loved it?
Yeah.

And the little Ed said, "If you want to put on a parachute, I can do a loop.

"
Yeah, most anything.

I said, "No, no, no.

"
So anyway, he took it up, and he did a stall.

And we dropped about 25 feet.

And I screamed and yelled and hung onto my seat in the whole works.

But up over the Auburn Airport, I loved it.

So what do you think is going to happen?
This is just changing the subject a little bit.

But we're not going to get in a big fight over this, like the city and the Auburn Airport.

But what do you think is going to happen about the Auburn Airport out there?
You know, the fighting with it?
Well, I'm awfully sorry to say that I haven't kept up on that at all.

Oh, okay.

All right.

We'll leave it at that, because we don't want to get in a big issue about that.

I'm sorry.

We'll be getting phone calls, huh, Deanna?
We don't want that, man.

So okay, Bonnie.

Let's go with Lyman Gilmore.

Here's Gilmore's engine reduced to Adams.

He had a—he said that the engine could not, in this article, could not do what he asked of it, and it broke up.

The crankshaft broke up.

This is one of the setbacks a poor man had.

And this was September 21st in 1911.

It seemed like the newspapers must have followed this guy around.

It was, of course, back in the day when you're trying to get something up in the air, and of course people would be fascinated with that.

Now, you asked, "Was he eccentric?"
And this is another one that I would like to read a portion of.

He took—all right, he was living in Nevada City.

And he went to Allegheny.

He took with him some men.

I think there was a carload of six.

As they went on the road—this was April the 18th in 1918.

This was on page five.

The road was very bad.

It was terribly muddy.

Mountain roads where machines have to take the outside and run the wheels within a few inches of going over the grade for miles at a stretch.

Aside from this, there is plenty of good stiff mud and dry bumpy ground to get over on the flat hilltops and ridges.

Between 10 and 12 miles of the road should be scraped before it is fit for automobile stages this year.

Mr.
Gilmour is the inventor of—he contributed this to the paper.

He is the inventor of several airplanes, and he states that they are just the thing for aerial transportation to Allegheny and other mountain points where snow and mud interfere with all wheel vehicles.

This road trip could be made in a little over one hour, and a tongue could be carried in an ordinary airplane.

It is conclusive evidence that the airplane will eventually be restored to for all up-country traffic and even to carry freight, as one machine could handle six to eight tons daily into Allegheny, which would accomplish just twice as much as an ordinary motor truck consuming, no doubt, more fuel than a swift-moving airplane.

This is, to me, where I think he ran into some trouble, because people having a lot of money in land-based shipping would maybe say, "Oh, is that what the airplane is coming to?"
And then the second part will give you an idea of why he was a person of—well, anyway.

Mr.
Gilmour first conceived the idea of the airplane a good many years ago, while quite a small boy, after watching the birds, after the machine had been worked out.

Like many other young men, he had some wonderful ideas.

One in particular was, he sought to establish a cheese and butter factory up in the Milky Way.

But after consulting the local dairies, he was convinced it would be a falling market, and consequently the airplane industry was abandoned at that time.

He was a man before the time.

Right now you can conceive of that notion, but hardly in that day, wouldn't you say?
The Milky Way is very prominent for this time of the year, which astronomers claim to be indications of warm weather.

This is what the German aviators are looking for, as the oily substances in the Milky Way will be melted and thus furnish plenty of lubricating oils for the high fliers when the earthly supply runs short, which is very likely the case in Germany just now.

How's that?
Yeah, that's good.

A man before his time.

He was a dreamer.

This man.

Anyway.

Would you say he was a dreamer?
Oh, yes.

This appeared the day that Pearl Harbor was bombed.

This was in the Oakland Tribune under a weekly column called The Nave that says, "Gilmore Flying Machine.

"
There's an article about it.

How strange in my mind that this appeared the day that Pearl Harbor was bombed.

Oh, because that should have been the big news back in that day.

That was—oh, it was.

It was.

But this was on an inside page.

It was also in there.

To give you an idea here, this article is from the local paper in 1928, December 8th.

"The whole aviation declared to be looming so large that all alive towns should take heed.

"
What does that mean?
"Begin to think about transportation by air.

"
I see.

What year did he die, do you know?
1951, February the 18th.

And do you know how old he was?
74.

Did he see anything that he had left behind, like—I mean, was there anything that people awarded him for, like being the first to think of the idea of flying or anything of that sort?
Did he see any significant thing for himself because of being involved in creating the airplane?
If so, I found no record.

I found no record.

So the claim to fame really went to the Wright brothers and Lindbergh and the flyers of that day.

From what I gather, he was not interested in being the first to fly.

He was interested in—and I have material I feel supports it—having fuel that was easily obtainable.

He wanted water to be the fuel.

He wanted us to be able to use easily obtainable materials, not have to go so far and wide for things.

He was very much concerned for the human race.

He was concerned for the environment very much so.

Everything I've read indicates it.

Which like you, Bonnie, and me?
Yes.

Okay, what is this that we have coming up here now?
I think I'll let that one go.

In his personal life—well, no, wait a minute.

Is that the time for—yeah.

He had a cousin, Mr.
Clark, Leroy Clark, who was in Mining Ventures with him.

There was another gentleman in on a man by the name of Goodwin, Jerry Goodwin, who was in on Mining Ventures.

They were at—you know, when Mr.
Goodwin and Mr.
Clark got into a fight and they killed each other.

Uh-oh.

These were Maimon Gilmour's Mining Partners.

Right.

Deadly Duel at U-Bett is sequel of Corrusing.

Jerry Goodwin and Leroy Clark opened fire at each other.

Anyway, that was true written up.

And the date— Does it say whether or not Laimon Gilmour was there at the Deadly Duel?
I don't remember.

March the 4th, 1913.

Was he married, Laimon Gilmour?
Give me a minute.

Okay.

March the 5th, 1913.

Iron nerve displayed by participants in Deadly Revolver Duel.

Okay.

That was 1913.

Uh-huh.

You're in the wrong place.

We're going through here pretty quickly, huh, Bonnie?
Where'd you go?
I don't know.

Well, I'll tell it then.

The papers will show up pretty soon.

Leroy Clark lived next door to Laimon Gilmour on Nevada Street in Nevada City.

His house was downhill from Laimon Gilmour's.

Leroy Clark was married to Marie Clark.

Mrs.

Clark and Laimon Gilmour became very good friends.

In time, she died in 1931, and in 1935, her house burned.

Early 1935.

The article in the newspaper said it was "Clinker's in the chimney.

"
It was what?
You know, "Soot in the chimney.

"
It was really down the hill.

In fact, I have the pictures to show just how down the hill it is.

Where this street is is where the house was, Marie Clark's house.

Where the wall was, the property of Laimon Gilmour is above that wall.

Laimon Gilmour's house is gone.

There's another house there.

This was -- the two properties are very, very close to a church, just up the hill about three houses from a church.

Okay.

So that shows how close they were.

Right.

Laimon Gilmour, according to the article, had charge of Mrs.

Clark's affairs after she died.

And in the four years between her death and the fire, his office was placed in her house.

So when the house burned, much of his material was lost.

Oh, man.

Yeah.

That's too bad.

Not a very good move for him.

No.

Very hard.

And the articles are here.

Where did we go?
Now.

Oh, where did we go?
Ask me something.

Well, I wonder where he got his wings from.

How he got the idea.

Yeah.

Was it actually being in that wagon and that wagon lifting a little bit with the horse pulling it, or was it something that he thought of years -- did you read anything about it?
Good question.

Good question.

If you go to any library and look up the history of aviation, the attempt to get into the air has been going on for a long, long time.

And of course, the airship, the balloon, was successful.

They had balloons early on, but of course they were vulnerable.

They could be shot down.

There were all kinds of devices for getting in the air.

And from reading about Mr.
Gilmore, he read about these things and read about these things.

And he started in -- he had gliders before 1900.

Oh, he did?
Yes.

No engine, just gliders.

Gliders.

Mm-hmm.

So you climb to the top of the mountain and you glide down.

Right.

Oh, no.

No good.

[Laughter.

]
They were on skids, these first ones.

And the people who were with him said, "You have to balance the plane better.

"
And a bag of sand weighing 30 pounds was placed at the back of the plane.

Well, it didn't work.

And so when the men left, Lyman pulled the bag off and let the plane go, and then it flew.

My brother, the thing that was the biggest problem was that some people said he was in competition with the Wright brothers or would claim being the first to fly.

But my brother, Max, said that Lyman told him, "No, that he only achieved level flight just straight out and gliding downward because the steam engine was too heavy.

"
Oh, yeah.

Just like that.

The steam engine was too heavy.

Mm-hmm.

Besides, how would you get all the water heated up for the -- Look, are you going into the air with wood burning in this vessel?
Right.

In this -- that man.

Well, he must have had some clue or something.

I don't know what it was, but it wouldn't be anything that I would want to do.

That's for sure.

Okay.

Now, in 1935, June 9th, a lay reporter from the Sacramento Union, which was a paper that was a going thing in Sacramento along with the Sacramento Bee, wrote about Lyman Gilmore, Jr.

He was Lyman Gilmore, Jr.

, named after his father.

Okay, Yvonne.

I think I -- oh, maybe I can handle this.

This is reversed up here.

There was so much dark in the picture that it went from public positive to negative.

But this would be all dark inside the hangar.

Grass Valley Inventors, still 25 years ahead of times and air ideas.

Yep.

Almost unbelievable story of faith in man's ability to copy birds.

Forty-four years of aviation history, Gilmore's step ahead.

When you read this, the light print is what the reporter printed.

The dark print are Gilmore's exact words.

And this is 1935, June the 9th, in their special section.

These can be gotten -- These planes were Gilmore Flying Fill, Grass Valley.

So there was actually an airport named after him?
Oh, yes.

Yeah?
Yes.

The very next day -- I mean, the very next week was the second of the two -- of the two.

Uh-huh.

Grass Valley Genius first found Eagle's Secret.

Gilmore solved flight puzzle 25 years ago.

Inventor puts motor in front of ship, flies.

What a guy.

June the 16th, 1935, Sacramento Union.

You have to look really through to find this one in there, but it's there.

Well, Bonnie, I'm glad you've got all this stuff for us.

We really needed to know this.

Let's change the subject just for a minute, because I want to ask you about the Blimp.

That in the day was the way to fly, wasn't it?
The Blimp carried a lot of people.

Yeah.

Was that the Heidelberg that crashed and killed -- Hindenburg.

Hindenburg.

What was that name, Dr.
Kurt?
Hindenburg?
Is that a German name?
Sounds like it.

Yeah.

Was it an explosion within the Blimp that caused it to crash?
Do you remember that, Bonnie?
Because I vaguely remember -- It was electricity from the clouds.

They thought.

But then later examination of it, very recent, there was something about the coating that was put on the exterior.

They also thought about sabotage, too.

Oh, did they?
Oh.

Well, one never knows.

You asked if Gilmor was honored at all.

Right.

In 1940 -- Oh, here we go.

-- six pioneer of aviation, Lyman Gilmor, to be honored guest at Ariel's Circus.

August 31, 1946.

Wow.

I have material written by people more up-to-date, but my purpose was to find -- get as close to the source as I could.

So is your story about Lyman Gilmor going to appear in the Sierra Heritage?
Do you know?
That I don't know.

Oh.

We'll be looking forward to it.

Here is his description.

All right.

Gilmor -- I should have put this in long ago.

Gilmor is credited with having the first commercial airfield in the United States.

Oh, my.

And that's Lyman Gilmor.

Yeah.

There you go.

Great.

Sorry I put that in the wrong place.

Oh, that's okay.

That's all right.

Not to worry.

At least it's in there.

It's in there.

Yeah.

And this is a description of the airfield and how good it was.

And I better now say, why wasn't it kept as Grass Valley's airport?
It was -- there were several reasons.

It had a hump in the middle.

It didn't have long enough runways.

It was too close to town.

It was only a mile from town.

And it was too much of a -- and they also built houses up close to it.

And then there were trees down on one end, and it just didn't fit the situation.

So no good to be an airport there?
No.

No.

And Gilmor's contribution to flying will be recognized all day Sunday.

Mm-hmm.

And Hale's success of first airshow and Lyman Gilmor recognition.

You asked if there was a school -- here is -- these are -- and I don't think you can get it.

These were all in the shade, but these had to do with the mural itself that is painted on the outside of the building, and I bet I have these reversed.

Oh, that's okay.

Just so long as we can see them.

Yeah, that's great.

Okay.

So they got him dressed up.

Here's another picture of the street where Mrs.

Clark's house was.

Mm-hmm.

Okay, Kurt.

Here is a picture from the school.

Ronnie, you're getting to be a pro at this, you know.

I put so much time in on this, you can't imagine.

Oh, yes, I can.

It scared myself silly, too.

Here's another picture from the Lyman Gilmor school, which is west of Grass Valley on the way to Marysville.

And here's the long view of the mural.

And where is the mural?
On the school, painted -- On the school? -- painted on the wall of the school.

Here -- let's see, am I done?
Yeah, on those walls?
This is where Gilmor's buried.

He's buried in the Pine Grove Cemetery.

You drive up Boulder Street onto Red Dog, go straight ahead, and where the road starts, going down the hill -- you drive into the cemetery, go down the hills, park there, and simply walk out to the fence, and you can find Gilmor's grave, and you can find his brother Charles' grave.

And brother Charles lived with him for the most part, was a mechanic.

Airplane mechanic?
Mm-hmm.

Oh, uh-huh.

And where do we find this, in Grass Valley?
No, this is a Pine Grove in Nevada City.

In Nevada City, okay.

Yeah.

So he didn't drift very far from -- Is this taking too long?
No.

Come on, Bonnie, keep going, honey.

We're going to do this.

Okay.

Gotcha.

Yeah.

Now I'm sorry to have to depart from articles that were written while he was still alive.

He was written up in, after he died, February the 18th, 1951.

There were articles in -- this is in from the Sacramento Union -- "Pioneer, Nevada City, Plain Inventor Who Flew Before Wright Brothers Dies.

"
This says age of 75.

I thought it was 74.

This one, "The Wings of Lyman Gilmor," appeared in -- ah, didn't I write it down?
Oh, well, that's okay.

We kind of -- we get the idea here, Bonnie.

And this is a beautiful article.

Just beautiful.

I would like to read the first paragraph.

Okay.

"Pursed on Aristocracy Hill in Nevada City is an ancient house and a lot overgrown with weeds and wild grass.

The exterior is scarred by fire and weather.

Its interior is a ghostly, multi-celled layer littered with 50 years accumulation of junk, grains of plaster --" wait a minute, wait a minute.

I think I put the period in the wrong place.

Okay.

"Grains of plaster --" all right.

"Grains of plaster have fallen from the crumbling walls.

Yellowed blueprints and drawings overflow everywhere.

Until a fortnight ago, it was the home of Lyman Gilmor, inventor, engineer, mystic, and village character.

Now Gilmor is dead.

His bones -- his home remains.

My brother was in his house.

He had things stacked so high -- he just had a pathway in every room except the kitchen.

Things were stacked so high that to put anything else on, he had to have a pole with an arrangement and clothespin to pile up on.

But that said, "Scorched by fire and let's go back to Mrs.

Clark's house burning.

"
I guess what papers remained then went back to Mr.
Gilmor's house and that's why there were scorched papers.

The outside of the house up in Ly was scorched, too, from the fire at Mrs.

Clark's.

Okay?
Yeah, very good.

Let's see this picture here.

Is that the one we showed before?
Is that the one we showed before, Kurt?
Maybe not.

What I wanted was this.

He died in 1951.

In September of '54, a reporter from the paper wrote a big, big article on Gilmor.

And this also was in 1953.

It has a good picture.

I didn't know if you wanted to get that.

This man wrote every week a good article on someone and called his column "The Trail.

"
Okay.

I thought it was really pretty.

The name was Axel Gravender.

Axel Gravender.

And what paper was he with?
His column was "The Trail.

"
I believe it was the Grass Valley Morning Union.

Okay.

If I'd done.

Come on.

Yeah, we did that picture already.

Okay.

Okay.

That's good.

Axel Gravender liked Lyman Gilmor.

There's no doubt.

Lyman Gilmor was far ahead of world in designing a flying machine.

This is his first paragraph.

Okay.

I have to tell you that Mr.
Gilmor Hangerburn in 1935.

In it were two planes, one of them going to Chicago for the World's Fair.

Again the fair?
Chicago, yeah.

But it burned up.

Was that a mysterious— Was arson suspected of Hanger?
I hunted and hunted and hunted for the date.

I could not find it.

I researched every newspaper from 1927.

Although that was way too early.

But I needed to see what I could find.

I also was so interested in what happened to the airfield, what happened to people who visited it.

Three very famous men were there at the airfield.

They flew—they had flights coming out of there.

And I was interested in what was happening in the nation a little bit in the world.

So anyway I read—I went through all the papers from 1927, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35.

You did a lot of work.

Yeah.

Is there ever any mention about him meeting any of the other first like Wright Brothers or Lindbergh, Charles Lindbergh?
Or does it mention anything about him ever coming in contact with these people?
No.

No.

But he was in contact with famous people who did contact Lindbergh.

Really?
At some point, yes.

After Lindbergh came back from overseas, before he finished his flight, he spent time going all around our country.

It was a 22,000 mile trip.

And where I picked it up was he was in Spokane, then in Seattle, then Portland, I think.

Did you say 22,000?
Yes.

He went all over.

People could see him and see his plane.

He flew the Spirit of St.

Louis.

And then from San Francisco he went to Sacramento, then Dorino.

So he flew up—this reels me—he flew up the Interstate 80 route.

See?
Oh, wow.

Yeah.

And he's supposed to have gone over a veteran's hospital south of Sacramento, temporarily.

Then he went down to Southern California.

Lindbergh had some mystical things going on, didn't he?
Like he believed that he had other sources helping him out with flying and whatever.

Tell me a little bit about that, Bonnie.

He was up in the plane and he was trying to make it across the Atlantic.

And this fly was buzzing around.

And he loved that fly because it saved his life.

Do you remember that in the story?
I think so.

First he wrote the book "We.

"
My brother had a copy of "We" when he was young.

Maybe that's how I got into planes.

I was just the right age to be excited about Lindbergh.

But in "The Spirit of St.

Louis," which he wrote years later, he does bring in the fact that he was very short on sleep when he started out.

His trip took thirty-three hours.

And that there's a section in there of one page, if not more, where he speaks of figures at the back of him who'd move forward and talk to him.

I think I'd be getting out of the plane.

Not over the water, you wouldn't.

Of course, if they're helpers, angels, that were helping him, then that's probably what was going on.

He was receiving some help and well deserved, probably, well deserved help.

I saw the movie "Jimmy Stewart.

"
Oh, with that, that portrayed Charles Lindbergh?
Yeah.

All right.

Yeah, Jimmy Stewart.

Hello, Jimmy Stewart.

This is Axel Gravenger's article.

The first paragraph reads, "All right, I must tell you that a lot of people did not believe in Mr.
Gilmour.

"
Is that right?
"And a lot of people did.

"
Yes.

Those who did not, what was—did they think he was just whistling a tune or didn't take him for granted or what was that reasoning?
Do you know in your research did you find out?
All I can figure is this.

What he proposed, going into the air, was against people who believed, who went to church a lot.

Because you should not take humans into the air.

The air belongs to birds.

The air belongs to God.

The air belongs to angels.

Humans must not get into the air.

See, this is a long time ago.

I think that all these inventors were running into this kind of trouble all the time.

I think so.

Also, people who just didn't want to let go of land travel because they had so much money tied up into it, that would be a real problem, even though the government tried to tell them it wouldn't take any jobs away or businesses away.

And then another thing was that Mr.
Gilmour's house, and whether this is a factor or not, I don't know, where there were some very beautiful homes.

And his house, at least the inside, was in such bad shape.

And he didn't bathe.

He didn't shave.

He didn't cut his hair.

And he was rather of a—a lot of them went to that church I showed you the picture of.

I'm sure they did.

And he would be an embarrassment to the community.

So the poor man did stir up controversy.

And in his first paragraph, this was in three Saturday papers.

Axel Gravender reads, "The Bible knew that no one was recognized as a prophet in his own hometown.

And although a multitude of geniuses have surrounded us with a legion of technical wonders of material progress, humanity hasn't changed one width.

We may gaze with awe, wonder, and reverence at such marvelous things as jet planes and television.

But their inventors were likely as not, shrugged off, as nuts, or at least given the derogatory title of eggheads.

"
Well, there you go.

Eggheads or not, he did something.

And I think this happened to all the men who were trying to get into the air.

And I have another quote I would give you from this man.

And I am all smart.

"This I tried to find.

My brother knew of it, but I could not find a date.

A Curtis engineer in Grass Valley came.

There was a race that Gilmour was wont to tell about in later years with great relish.

The fellow didn't think that my cabin job could even leave the runway," says Gilmour chuckling.

"He thought the cabin structure and the thick single wings would present too much wind resistance.

He didn't know what to think of my engine either.

So I bet him a race to San Francisco and beat him with a good half hour.

He didn't think the short trip conclusive.

So he went on down to Los Angeles.

I got there far ahead of him, and on the way back I made 125 miles to his 95 with his four passengers to my three.

"
Aha!
Yeah, there you go.

And the last one, let's see, somewhere.

I'm starting to run out.

Well, that's okay.

We're going to have to get going here pretty soon, Bonnie, but this has been fantastic.

And we got it done.

This one you must hear.

Alright.

"He couldn't understand business.

His drafting and dreaming, his facts and fancy, were just as real to him as the automobile he was driving or the telephone he used.

But he was unable to understand the cold business world with its doubts and probings and intrigues.

At one period of his life he also went in for writing, pending lengthy poetic narratives of his visions as they were revealed to him in great detail.

He also left behind a few manuscripts of pure science fiction stories which he never tried to publish.

Some of these he let this narrator read.

They carried flashes of wonderful imagination, but were burdened with an overload of scientific social philosophizing, benevolent but boring.

In a rare moment of unchecked confidence, he once showed me his diary for 1999.

He had written down a lengthy description of a vision in which had been revealed to him the coming of the Second World War, an amazing outline of its progress and end, and a skeleton draft for the rebuilding of the devastated world.

"
So he was a visionary.

He was a visionary.

Absolutely.

Bonnie, this has been great.

Anything you want to add on to this?
Only that other writers wrote about him.

But this was so important.

How about your daughter, Vella Mudd?
She wrote something for a publication some distance away, has not heard about it yet.

You must know that he was written up in Argosy, spring of 1966.

This went out of business.

It was a national magazine for men.

In this he tells about the flight with a Curtis going to San Francisco.

He was written up in Aviation Quarterly out of Plano, Texas.

This is 1979, first quarter, and this is Lacy for the Lotta Body.

He was written up in other publications.

He was printed up in Oakland Tribune, San Francisco Chronicle, Sacramento Bee, Sacramento Union.

Well, we did Lyman Gilmore.

I hope he's happy with you and all your research, because you have really taken this man to heart and really just done amazing things about this guy.

I felt that it should be done, that people should know about him.

I so appreciate this, Yvonne.

Yeah, well, you're welcome, Bonnie.

We wanted to do it because you're one smart lady.

You're just like your brother.

How would you get started on this man?
How could you quit?
Well, you didn't quit.

You kept going.

Do you have any clue what might have happened to Amelia Earhart?
Do you have any theories about that?
No, I don't.

Not at all.

You think she actually did crash or what?
I wouldn't be a bit surprised.

Holland Island was so small and the ocean so vast.

You think she might have just ran out of the whole thing?
I think she ditched.

I really think she ditched.

Okay, you gonna go fly in, Bonnie?
We went to the airport and we saw a lot of planes out there, didn't we, Kurt?
Oh, did you?
You gonna go fly in?
I couldn't think past what I've been doing.

Okay, Bonnie, this has been so, so nice.

Thank you.

Thank you so very much.

I love you to pieces.

Thank you, Yvonne.

I love you.

And we'll be seeing you again soon.

Okay.

You take care and thank you so much for watching.

This is one of our Sierra treasures and also Jim Flanagan who told us about Tom Dweller's plane out there and we hope that it wins a race in Reno because, boy, they've put a lot of money into it.

So thank you for watching.

Thank you, Kurt.

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Kurt.

What a guy.

We'll see you all later.

Bye-bye.

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